国家情报局的凯瑟琳·托宾与观众一起推动政府创新

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该集发电支持来自Untold内容和数据+ Science的数据讲故事培训。雷竞技电竞竞猜雷竞技raybet提现通过学习数据可视化和技术讲故事的最佳实践，将数据转换为强大的视觉故事。无论您是PowerBi还是Tableau的人 - 或者只是想更好地传达您的数据 - 这次研讨会将激励您查看数据中的故事。了解更多//www.hchb688.com/datastorytelling雷竞技raybet提现training/．

凯蒂:(00:00:04)欢迎来到创新的不陈述故事，在那里我们扩大了洞察力，影响和创新的解开故事。由未结块内容提供支持。雷竞技电竞竞猜我是你的主人，Katie Trauth Taylor。我们今天的客人是凯瑟琳·托宾。她是国家情报署署长办公室的横向创新司主任。她是美国情报社区内部的创新领导者，在那里她带来了构建强大的创新环境的文化和过程变化。凯瑟琳，我很荣幸今天让你在播客。

凯思莲:(00:00:39)谢谢你！我很高兴来到这里。

凯蒂:[〇点〇〇分41秒]是什么让你进入了创新领域?如你所知，在你的职业道路上是什么样的指引?

凯思莲:[00:00:48]我一直是个有创造力的人，但正如你所知，创造力和创新之间有很大的区别创造力是一种新的和不寻常的东西，但要成为创新，它必须是有用的。所以对我来说，心态上的巨大转变是在几年前，当我上设计思考的课程时，你知道，我一直试图在我做的每一份工作中混合一些东西，有时有用，有时没用。这太令人沮丧了，你知道，为什么它没起作用?为什么人们不像我一样喜欢这些想法呢?当我上设计思维这门课的时候第一个练习是:老师说，“大家早上好。我想让你为我设计一个钱包。还有什么问题吗?”

凯思莲:[00:01:30]当然，每个人都很“我搞定了”。这是惊人的。这将是有史以来最好的钱包。”所以我们开始工作，开始画出所有这些新特征，你知道，思想，图片，钥匙或其他东西。我很兴奋，因为我想买这个钱包，为什么没人想到呢?我们的时间到了。我们急切地走向老师，等着老师表扬我们的好主意。他说:“你们都失败了。”然后我们就想"等等，什么?为什么?” And he said, “you were supposed to design a wallet for me. And no one asked me a question. No one asked what I need a wallet to do. No one asked, what’s wrong with my current wallet? No one really cared about me. And I was the hopeless customer.” And it just really hit home that that’s what I’ve been doing wrong all along. You know, it’s not. It wasn’t really innovation. It was just creativity that got lucky. So the real key to innovation is to know who you are designing for and their struggles and what they really need and then empathizing with them and knowing their story almost as well as they do and trying to build for them. And that was just the key to all of it. And I’ve been fusing that into my career ever since. And I’ve been unfortunate to find a group of people in the intelligence community who are also working that way.

凯蒂:(00:02:52)我喜欢这个故事，因为我觉得我们都可以涉及到有一个伟大的想法或思考的东西的感觉将是有效的，那种在我们自己的头上被逮住它，如果你愿意，而忘记了用户体验和协作并获得反馈，并沿着建设过程中的循环。我认为，讲故事可以给我们彼此移情，理解我们的利益相关者或我们的消费者问题或挑战，特别是对创新这样一个有趣的开放。你能告诉我一些你的想法，你知道，身边讲故事，在你的故事多年来作为创新改变了方式？

凯思莲:[00:03:35]讲故事，在专业意义上，仍然很新。我的意思是，因为人类真的老了。自历史开始以来，我们一直在这样做。作为孩子，我们喜欢故事。下班后，我们读了书籍。我们看电影。除了某种原因，我们沉浸在故事中，九到五。这似乎是抗议的沙漠，大部分地。

凯蒂:[00:03:59]是的。

凯思莲:(00:04:00)所以当我们不是用事实、数据和流程图，而是用故事去接近他们时，人们会感到惊讶。但它非常有效。一个例子是:我的团队运行着一个名为“情报、科学和技术伙伴关系”(Intelligence, Science and Technology Partnership，简称ISTA)的程序。它的目标是帮助初创企业和小型非传统企业的真正的创新能力与情报机构的使命需求联系起来。我的团队负责这个项目。我们认为这非常棒。但我们想确保它真的在为我们的客户服务。所以我们想，他们能找到吗?我们沟通得好吗?所以我们让不熟悉这个项目的实习生假装他们是初创公司的创始人，想和情报团队做生意。 So we had them document and basically write the story of their journey to try to do business with ISTA. And, you know, we thought it would be a love story where they did a little research and they found out about us and aren’t this great, happily after. It turned out it was more of a horror story like, you know, when you’re watching that movie and you want to yell at the character, “don’t open the door!” It was like that. We were reading their stories and what they were searching for was wrong and the resources they were reading were not the right ones. And they didn’t understand how things worked. And it was just emotional for us to read because we knew how it was supposed to be. And it was emotional for them because they were so frustrated and so eager and it was just heartbreaking. And so we thought, you know, we know this story because we asked them [unclear wording]. Think of all the people who just run instead. And so it was so impactful and it completely changed how we thought about advertising the program to people. And we shared this. We packaged it as it is, sent it to other government agencies who are running similar programs and said, “hey, guys, this is what’s actually happening [unclear wording].” And everyone sat up and paid attention. And that just goes to show that, like, if we had sent over “best practices for communicating with startups.” Eh, you know, those are helpful, but it wouldn’t really grip people like the story did.

凯蒂:(00:06:26)绝对的。你决定给那份报告起什么标题?你还记得吗?

凯思莲:[00:06:32]这是以前我们进入吸引人的标题。我们现在是和总是试图拥有富有魅力的字幕。我认为这是对的东西，你知道的，客户的旅程，寻找情报界什么的。

凯蒂:[00:06:46]好的好的。确定。这是令人难以置信的。我喜欢那个。那些实习生必须感觉到他们在那个过程中非常重要的声音。

凯思莲:[00:06:55]绝对的。

凯蒂:(00:06:57)你能跟我们说说你和你的团队在中情局工作中最喜欢的创新故事吗?

凯思莲:(00:07:05)我已经不在中情局了。我在那里待了几年，现在在ODNI。我的意思是，这是一个情报机构，我们都在密切合作。

凯蒂:[00:07:14]如果你真的可以，你能告诉我们一些不熟悉情报界结构的人，你能告诉我们你的办公室，中情局和其他一些你经常合作的主要参与者之间的关系吗?

凯思莲:[零点07分30秒]确定。情报界包括17个组成部分，其中一些是你在电视上听说过的，比如中央情报局(CIA)、国家安全局(NSA)或联邦调查局(FBI)。有些是较小的，它们通常是内阁级机构的一部分。例如，美国国务院的情报和研究办公室(Office of Intelligence and Research)是情报界的一部分。但它也是国务院的一部分。所以如果你把16个元素加上ODNI，你得到17。ODNI起着协调作用。因此，协调、监督和召集，基本上，当机构、独立的情报机构本身，如中央情报局或国家安全局，是建造卫星、分析图像和编写情报产品的人。相反，ODNI代表整个情报界工作，并真正确保我们在一起工作，发出统一的声音来支持决策者。我认为有一个很好的例子可以说明这一点，那就是人们都很熟悉总统的每日简报。 And what people might not realize is that that is a product that is by ODNI. It includes pieces from all over the intelligence community based on the topic at hand. And people go on rotation from whatever their home agency is to ODNI for a few years and are part of the president’s daily brief team to compile the book and brief it downtown. So it’s kind of that all-star team of people going on rotation from different IC elements to do something on behalf of the community. And then how that works for me and my team is lateral innovation is here to amplify and accelerate innovation and innovators across the intelligence community. So our role is to work with innovators across the community, either advocate. So we often produce training materials such as playbooks on the best way to run a hackathon or how to do a pitch event, working with startups, or how to do storytelling, things like that. These [unclear wording] materials and guidebooks, we also are working on incentives. And so how might we reward people for being innovative? Whether that is an award for great innovations or [unclear wording]. Or also how might we shape the incentive structure to get people to think in terms of balancing innovation and moving quickly with also our security [unclear wording] and incentivizing the lawyers to focus on: “Yes, if” as opposed to “no, because.” That’s kind of the incentive side. And then the implementation side is we’ve noticed that innovation is happening all across the IC. Has been for years and it’s great, but it’s not often carrying across to the different agencies and elements as quickly as it could. So, for example, if the NSA has figured out how to do something, they want to use that product. Right? They want to use it for missions, which is wonderful. But who at NSA would want to share it with the CIA or FBI? So we’ll work with NSA, package up what we can, document the lessons learned, and then make it more of a franchise opportunity for other agencies to pick up and adjust and implement it as meets their mission needs rather than starting from scratch.

凯蒂:(00:11:24)太棒了。非常感谢。这为协作和创新的所有形式，以及跨越整个社区的方式，增加了很多背景。谢谢你！这是完美的。这是我们团队非常兴奋的事情。大约一年前，你和一些同事一起创建了一个小组，名为“寻求真相，说出真相:间谍讲故事的指南”。你能跟我们多说一点吗?

凯思莲:[00:11:51]这是美妙的。这是一次非常棒的经历。这是2019年3月西南偏南互动大会上的一个小组讨论。如果你还没有机会参加，我强烈推荐你参加。来自世界各地的人们齐聚一堂，为期一周，专注于创新、设计和技术。大家分享了很多新的想法，也听到了来自业界、政府和学术界的声音。有很多有趣的混搭和合作，还有免费的食物，这很好。因此，我和其他几名来自国家情报总监办公室和中央情报局的官员参加了一个小组讨论。我们都对讲故事和我们的角色有不同的看法。有一个人曾经是几位高级领导人的演讲稿撰写人，还有一个人是IC的平等机会和多样性负责人，还有一个人是我们ODNI的副透明度官，然后是我。 And so we each talked about how storytelling is useful for our role. So the speechwriter talked about how storytelling can help paint a really compelling picture and the importance and the balance of not using emotion to manipulate. So what… how do you use enough emotion that the audience understands what you’re trying to do without going overboard and really not playing fair? So he talked about how he does that. The head of equal opportunity and diversity talked about, from her perspective, storytelling helps us bring our whole selves to work. And that is so key to diversity and inclusion. And how the IC really values, diversity and inclusion. That’s one of our core values. And so how we are really highlighting the stories of our vast diversity of officers and understanding not just their work selves, but full selves. And that way we can appreciate each other. And of course, for me, picking right up on that diversity is so important [unclear wording] because all of those perspectives and solutions from very different places and metaphors and analogous worlds. So we need people who bring their full selves and their full array of experiences to work. And so the transparency officer was talking about how storytelling helps bring transparency and it really opens the black box. The intelligence community is secretive for a reason, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have a duty to explain what we do and to show what we can with the American public. And so he talked about how rather than just sending out declassified information in structure format and letting people do what they want. How do you tell the stories of what the intelligence community is doing so that it’s actually a compelling and understandable package for the public? And so he shared, for example, some videos from the wonderful website, intelligence.gov, I highly recommend people check that out, which features stories of current and historical intelligence officers. And then from my perspective, I was talking about storytelling and innovation and how we use storytelling, whether that to get buy in from leadership when we’re seeking resources to pursue a project or to get audiences and customers or would be customers to understand their need to change their behavior and also how we’re teaching storytelling as a part of the core curriculum for innovators across the community.

凯蒂:(00:15:49)这是美妙的。我认为你实际上还在中央情报局内部举办过一次活动，你基本上是在培训人们，我们称之为Untold，“创新讲故事”，对吧?

凯思莲:(00:16:00)我们做了。我们做了。这是几年前。这是一个非常广泛的情报机构思维的一个很好的例子。所以，这是各种各样的人，而不仅仅是一个指定的创新办公室，而且志愿者遍布这个事件的机构，它包括实际讲故事，以及教人们如何磨练如何磨练该工艺。所以人们谈到了不同的故事原型，所以你有英雄的旅程。你有爱情故事。你有复仇故事。何时使用每个以及如何绘制您的故事，如何练习您的故事......我们放弃了这些工作簿，人们可以用来从名字的故事那样简单的东西开始。这是一个伟大的破冰船，让人们养成讲故事，因为它可能是可怕的。 And also some great infographics about why stories are important and how they work. And we were able to release those to the public at South by Southwest and share those with you for the show notes as well.

凯蒂:[零点17分03秒]是的，我会把它联系起来，这真的很不可思议。它本质上是一本叫做“创新故事工艺”的手册。这让我想起了我们在创新故事培训中提到的一些元素。雷竞技raybet提现所以我认为这是一个非常好的资源。我很感激你能澄清这一点，这样我们就可以和听众分享了。但我肯定会链接那个练习本。还有一个非常棒的，本质上，它们叫什么?就像一个互动的文字泡泡图像?

凯思莲:[00:17:33]是的，这就像一个图形，录取纸质格式。

凯蒂:(00:17:35)是的。是的。是的。我猜这也是那次谈话的结果。

凯思莲:(00:17:41)是的。我的一个非常有才华的同事把它放在了一起，我们把它作为一种非常棒的讲义在教授这样的研讨会时使用。人们对这个话题非常感兴趣，关于这个话题的研讨会每年都会举办。

凯蒂:(00:17:58)我非常喜欢这个。这些都是梦幻般的资源，绝对检查了他们。我认为。让我们深深地深入潜水，因为思考文化如此令人着迷。你知道，创新社区真的被建立为一种文化，就像你说，保密，隐私，试图尽可能的隐形，你知道，当然是保护美国人，并保护自己．告诉我们智力社区经历这种创新故事培训的反应。雷竞技raybet提现

凯思莲:(00:18:31)这对人们来说无疑是一个警钟，因为这与我们所接受的训练是如此不同。你知道，这里的文化很看重真相和事实。在中情局原来的总部大楼的墙上有一句引言。它说，“你将看见真理，真理将使你自由。”这都是为了了解真相。当分析师加入,无论他们是什么机构,他们经过多个月的培训如何做适当的研究,如何引用来源,如何发现错误信息,如何结构化分析技术,如何,你知道,基本上消除不良情绪的分析。雷竞技raybet提现现在我们带着故事来到这里。这当然让人们感到惊讶，有时我们会对此表示怀疑，有些人是创新者往往是通才，他们很有创造力，他们在各种领域工作过。所以我们不是一个在某个话题上花了20年时间的分析师。所以当我们试图与专家合作时，我们有时会遇到这样的问题，你怎么知道得更好? You haven’t been doing this job for 20 years. And I have. And so that’s a part of the reason why stories are so important. [Unclear wording], doing our interviews with people and really developing empathy and understanding what people’s struggles are, we’re able to compellingly convey the challenges that are afoot and see that system and that whole ecosystem of what’s going on. So we can explain to someone that, you know, here’s the name of an analyst and say here is their day to day job. And here’s why it is expensive and difficult and risky and might not yield the best answer and really get people to think, oh, I have not experienced that. I didn’t see it that way. But you’re right. That’s a real problem. [Unclear wording.] So we use stories as kind of a call to action and to build credibility, because while the innovators might not have 20 years of experience on a certain topic, we do know how to do interviews, and understand the whole system around it. So we do have data to back up whatever it is we’re doing.

凯蒂:(00:20:54)是的。我爱你的壁画里面的一个引号来自Robert Mckee。你说，“发生了什么事实。我们的想法是真理。“And it is such a challenge when you’re asked to tell a story, so many of us sort of go back to our days as a child when we were, you know, accused of lying if we were telling a story, you know, “well you’re just telling stories.” So I think when we’re in a position of pursuing truth and trying to always represent the data and the information as correctly and accurately as we can and as ethically as we can, but also spark action or create change in light of that information or help decision makers determine how best to act. There’s such a fine line between, you know, presenting the facts as facts and those facts and, you know, forming a story. So it makes sense that it is such a complex initiative inside of the intelligence community. I think it’s challenging for all innovators to do this, but especially in that world, where to be called a storyteller could be a very negative accusation.

凯思莲:(00:22:10)这是一个非常好的观点。我没有那样想过。所以幸运的是，人们很容易接受。你知道，我们喜欢解释，我们有很多故事被反复使用。所以如果人们对创新持怀疑态度，对创新的过程持怀疑态度，他们会说，我们的财政已经非常非常拮据了。我们没多少时间了。我们没有很多人。明明知道可能会失败，为什么还要花更多的时间和资源来做得更好呢?我们可以点的故事的例子,这就是仅用了几个星期和几个采访和一些快速勘探和几个很快失败能够想出一个解决方案,明显更便宜、更快和更安全。现在我们这样做。 And it’s only because of taking the risk with the innovative process, that we’re able to do things better. And that usually wins people over.

凯蒂:(00:23:19)哦,当然。

凯思莲:(00:23:19)所以我认为，是的，你知道，我们的价值观是为了真相，为了事实，为了专业知识。但也总会有这样一个问题:这值得我们花时间吗?因为时间等于纳税人的钱。对吧?所以这不是利润率的问题。这不是季度收益报告的问题。而是:这是对纳税人的钱的合理使用吗?所以，通过讲述这些故事，我认为我们可以帮助人们理解，我们是在解决人类的问题。这不仅仅是一个闪亮的技术问题。我认为人们对创新有两大误解，认为创新是有趣、古怪、有创意的东西，是不做日常工作的借口。 Or that it’s very technical and the realm of science and technology and therefore opaque and so not meaningful to someone. And so…

凯蒂:(00:24:16)我想问你，我想问你，如果你的专业圈外的人听到你的工作，然后问，“所以你有点像詹姆斯·邦德电影里的M ?”

凯思莲:(00:24:27)有时,有时。或者他们会说，你是Q吗?这就是科学和技术。

凯蒂:(00:24:31)这是正确的。

凯思莲:(00:24:32)我喜欢吃。是的。

凯蒂:[0时24分34秒]你知道的，就是那个让你见识到真正敏锐，老练的人。

凯思莲:(00:24:38)是的。

凯蒂:(00:24:39)技术。

凯思莲:(00:24:41)对，就是这样。所以这是科学和技术的导演。我所看到的科学技术总监实际上是我旁边的办公室，这是有趣的。但是，所以，我们是不同的。我的办公室里没有詹姆斯债券等价物，这是一个耻辱。他们应该对此工作。但是，你知道，我们喜欢展示我们如何不仅仅是建筑技术导致它很有趣。事实上，创新的许多次数不是技术。他们是过程创新。有政策创新。 They are a physical space innovation. And they’re doing it for a purpose. And that’s to help people. A lot of our innovations are focused on our internal workforce and helping us do our jobs better as opposed to, unlike with the [unclear wording] example I gave earlier where our customers were external to the public. Mostly what we’re doing is trying to improve the business of intelligence.

凯蒂:[00:25:38]绝对的。这是令人难以置信的。您也发现了多个我们称之为创新故事模式的东西，您正在使用那些培训劳动力的人来开始考虑如何获得可以帮助改善社区的想法。And so I see that you’ve kind of found the innovator’s journey, you know, saying this is why I’m doing this, why I’m the right person to do this, or why my team is the right team and building credibility in that way or personal relatability. I like the other one that you’ve identified, the user journey. So thinking really clearly about who this is going to impact and sort of painting a picture, walking your stakeholders through how this is going to change the workflow or change the lives of the employee or the person who’s going to be touched by this innovation. You also say the brand journey story, the making of it. I think that one is interesting. We’ve done a lot of analyses at Untold around different innovation story types and patterns. And I’d probably fit a lot of the ones that we’ve identified into this category of the brand journey story or maybe the innovation journey story, because it seems like the ones that get the most buy-in are the ones that say, “here’s what we tried or here’s what we’ve tried so far. Here are the challenges, the technical challenges or the implementation challenges or the personnel challenges that we know or we think we know we’re going to face. And here’s our plan for getting through those challenges” and the clearer you can build the stakes around those challenges and the impact of overcoming them and the more that you can create credibility for the team that’s going to get through those challenges. It just seems to create the best kind of buy-in. So I was wondering, could you tell us a little bit more about your views on other story patterns or the ones that you share inside of your storytelling training?

凯思莲:[00:27:30]我喜欢你说的那些。绝对的。当你在经历不同类型的故事时，我说，是的，叫那个，告诉那个。是的。这就像是过去几年的精彩片段。我们也——这真的取决于我们处在旅程的哪个阶段。

凯蒂:(00:27:48)是的。

凯思莲:(00:27:48)因为一开始。问题是，嘿，我们觉得有问题。我们不知道解决方案是什么。但我们需要一些资源，也许是钱。我们能去拿吗?这就是顾客挣扎的故事。你知道，我们要在这个故事中寻找一个英雄。你可以通过给一些钱而成为英雄，为之努力，然后他们就完成了一半。和英勇奋斗的人。我们有一个好的解。 We have an OK idea of what the solution is. It’s not fully baked yet, but we definitely know what we want, some wonderful future life. That’s kind of a mystery story. Like, how do you get through the sticky part? And so that’s usually around the point where we’re trying to get the organizational buy-in, figure out that bureaucratic viability for the solution. We need that trifecta. You need the user desirability. The technical feasibility. You need the bureaucratic, the organizational viability. So when we’re working on the viability, then it’s a matter of presenting it as the story of the problem and get them really invested. “Oh, yeah. We need to solve that.” And what the shared vision of the future is. “Yeah, I get it. I want to go there” and then we can talk about the solution a bit. But it’s locked up and it’s sticky. There’s a problem to be solved that is caught in this contract trap. Can you, the contract office, help us get it unstuck? And how do we sort through this? And really, the goal for that type of story is to get them in Problem-Solving mode rather than approval mode. Because if you present it as: here are the specs of the solution, if a personal comes like an infomercial and those are difficult to do, and also if they find one thing wrong with it, they’ll say no. It’s like watching an infomercial. You’re like “oh, machine washable, no thanks.” So they – it changes the role a bit. And so instead, if you presented as: this is a mystery and you need to help us unlock the mystery, then they’ll work with you. Because I think a big misconception is that people view the lawyers or the contract specialists or security relationship as adversarial. “Oh, they’re going to say no. They won’t let us have nice things,” etc. But really, we’re all on the same team. We are all being paid by the same people. We have the same mission. It’s just we need to figure out better ways to work together. And so that’s why I like to present it, as: they are part of the story with us. And it’s kind of like a “choose your own adventure” and very active. And so they can help us get to the other side. And those have been really helpful. And in fact, something that we’re working on right now, a team, is we’re interviewing those key stakeholders in the organizational viability side, so the lawyers, the security people, the contract specialists, and asking them, “how can we better tell stories? What questions would you want answered in a story?

凯蒂:[0点31分09秒]我爱它。是的。

凯思莲:[0点31分09秒]这样我们就可以培训那些和律师一起工作的人。他们希望你的故事包括以下内容。还有合同人员有什么问题，等等。显然，我们会像创新者一样，用这些指南进行测试和迭代。

凯蒂:(00:31:29)我认为你刚才坏了我们的播客是如此重要,我想重申它本质上就说你说一次,因为我认为它很重要:当你试图让内部的支持其他部门、其他单位,其他地方你都仍然朝着相同的任务。但是你的日常生活或者你的路线图，你知道的，重点可能会非常不同。关键是要以对话的方式定位这个机会，并尽可能让这个故事成为一个合作故事。邀请他们和你一起写故事。不要像你说的，给他们一份需求清单或者在非政府机构，这通常是，你知道的，一份推销演讲稿。对吧?你要向一个特定的群体做演讲。

凯思莲:(00:32:23)正确的。

凯蒂:(00:32:23)相反，请他们与您写下技术简介。请他们和你一起写rfp。这种角色的转型可以创造自己的各种创新。所以我只是想暂停那个，因为我认为这是一个如此重要的观点，你说过内部买入，它真的很好地一起玩耍。

凯思莲:[0点32分44秒]绝对的。

凯蒂:[00:32:46]我喜欢你做的一切。我想回到你做的这个练习册，因为我喜欢-你之前在播客中说过这对没有受过训练的人来说是一个令人生畏的练习。我想我们所有人，你知道，我们还记得在小学早期的日子，我们学习了故事的弧线，角色的发展，高潮和解决等等。在某种程度上，它本身就能让故事看起来很基础，或者不需要评论。但当我们谈论技术信息或系统改变时，要讲出有力而清晰的故事就变得相当复杂，你知道，涉及多个参与者，并考虑不同的预算和风险。在这种情况下，情况是非常不同的。但我认为，有时故事可能会被认为不那么重要，因为我们把它与我们生活中的孩子般的教训联系在一起。但我也认为，最基本的是，它们的重要性永远不会消失。

凯思莲:(00:33:50)绝对的。

凯蒂:[00:33:52]所以我很好奇，当你在创新团队中工作的时候。什么时候你发现证据太多了，数据太多了?或者，你有没有发现一些讲故事的技巧会让观众不会贬低讲故事的人，而是把这个机会和一些没有证据的东西联系起来?如果这一切都是关于故事，你如何在故事和数据之间找到平衡，在传统的定义故事和数据之间找到平衡，在传统的定义故事和数据之间找到平衡?

凯思莲:[00:34:33]这是一个很好的问题。这总是一种平衡，对吧?多少研究才算过度研究?研究多少才算足够?我记得有一本书叫足够的研究．正确的。所以这显然是我们所有思想的主题。因此，我们喜欢从最少的八次面试开始。而且我小心地说面试，因为我提到的是，我们总是在考虑纳税人资源以及我们如何在我们的时间最有效。因此，我们实际上没有去调查路线或焦点组路线。即使您可能会说，那些更高效，您也可以覆盖更多人并从中获取更多数据。我们通常会采访的原因是因为我们可以提出后续问题。你可以看到人们的面部表情，真的了解情绪更好，知道何时适合按下更多信息。当有人可能会显示或发出信令时，我们想重新上个问题，等等。所以我们试图在一次面试中做到这一点，即使他们没有像调查一样生产尽可能多的数据点。 And so we’ll do an initial ballpark goal of eight and see how the data shakes out from there. So if we’re starting to get a lot of really similar answers, a pattern. OK. So probably we’ve covered it. If after about eight interviews. We find that the answers are contradictory. They’re all over the place. Then we regroup and think, well, maybe we’re misunderstanding the users. Maybe there’s a wider variety of use cases or personas than we’re originally anticipating. Maybe we solved the problem wrong. And so it’s good to know that after eight interviews and not after two months of interviews, right? So we try to work really quickly and iterate. And the way we’ll capture that data is we’ll work in pairs to do the interviews. One person will be doing talking and one person will be doing the note-taking. Unlike with a lot of people in the real world, as we like to say, our techniques for doing interviews and recording data has to be a bit different. We work in secure facilities where we’re not allowed to bring our personal electronic devices. Whereas right now we’re recording this just through our phones. And we can take pictures of if you were to do a sticky note exercise and conference rooms, take pictures, record it. We can’t do that. So we have to take our notes longhand and type them up. And then when we go over the notes, we anonymized the name and in with our current projects. We’re using names from the game of “Clue” to encode the data because A) it shows to people that it’s clearly fake names. So don’t try to read too much into it. And it also gives us a fun sense of whimsy as we do it. So we have the “Clue” names and then we record all of it, go through the data and we’ll cluster things. So we like to do the Rosethorn/bud techniques, which is where you look at all of the positive things that people have to say about a certain topic. For example, we did one a couple last year about how we might improve our recruitment of people with subject matter expertise in science, STEM recruitment in the intelligence community. So we had some interviews with people who were recent hires or graduate students or potential hires and coded the information. So what’s going well, what’s not going well, those were the “thorns.” And then the “buds” are what are the areas [unclear wording]. So kind of cluster them thematically and look for patterns. And at this point, you would normally take pictures of the other sticky notes and record them all. And I just have boxes of sticky notes in my office from past projects because you don’t want to get rid of it. You always want to go back to the data, right? [Unclear wording.] And so we do the data. We might create personas based on the interviewees we’ve done. So Persona is basically a fictional amalgamation of the types of people that you interview. And so it’s a really good way to explain to people who are not present for the interviews, such as your project sponsor, who you are solving for and their needs, their fears, the capabilities they have, and you can also do a double check for any solution against the personas. Would this really help Sam? Would this really help Professor Plum? And so we have our data and we’ll do the questions. And then from there, we’ll really figure out what is our problem? What is our root problem? Right? Ask the question, “why?” Five times to really make sure we’re solving the right problem. And at that point, it is often different from the problem we were asked to solve. And if the person, if the product sponsor is not in the room at that point, we need to find them ASAP because there is nothing worse than surprising your project sponsor at the end and saying, “guess what, you were wrong. That wasn’t the problem at all, but don’t worry, we figured out the right problem, which is these other things.” They don’t like that. So it’s really important to go back and say and keep them posted on the data and what you’re learning, because if our data is showing something different from what they asked us to solve and they still want to solve the original problem, then we need to understand their needs. And what they’re trying to do is to talk to different people, that maybe we missed the first time. So that is a really, really important status check. So once we’ve deconstructed the problem, we will then do any number of techniques to generate a lot of solutions. Always go big before you go small. And so we’ll bring in creative people, we’ll transpose the problem lots of different ways to try to come up with as many solutions as possible. [Unclear wording] then find a couple of favorites and then figure out how to really quickly test and iterate on them. And for that, we are also trying to be good about documentation. And if you’ve ever seen – there’s a template, a free template, called “Strategyzer,” strategyzer cards. Or if you’ve ever graduated from elementary school and have had elementary school science, you know the scientific method. So Strategyzer cards are basically the same as the worksheet you got in fifth grade when you were learning the scientific method. It’s so accessible. It’s great. And so it’s asking you, you know, what are you trying to learn? What do you think? You know what? And how will you test it? What do you think you’ll see when this happens? For example, if we wanted to test the hypothesis that. You know, if we. And this is a complete, complete hypothetical. If we allowed people to apply to multiple IC elements at once, a common application, then applications to some of the lesser known elements would go up. And so then we might test that with people and see if that happens. And if it doesn’t happen, well, now we learned, right? So the reason why those cards are so important is it forces us in advance to think about: what are we testing, what are we looking for? What does a, you know, quote unquote success look like? And not. Because that way we’re documenting when it doesn’t work. And we can easily share that with others. Thought a common application would increase applications to this agency. It did not. Please, guys, don’t go down that road again. And if we’re right, then it also shows that we didn’t just cherry pick evidence. No P hacking. As is sometimes a problem in the science world. That really builds up credibility with people when we’re trying to explain it to them. And, you know, show your work, show the process. But how does that come out with storytelling? Right. Like, I just give you a very detailed description of the steps we take. Our audience doesn’t necessarily need to know that, but we need to have done the work so that we can choose the right elements. It’s all about picking, understanding the story that the audience needs to hear as opposed to the story that you want to tell.

凯蒂:(00:42:54)是的！是的。

凯思莲:(00:42:54)这意味着我们可能需要将一些部分结合起来获得一些始终保持真实的部分，而不是樱桃挑选。而且，您知道，更改它或无论您是什么，您还是完成了工作，因为如果您在那里出现问题，那么您讲述了您的用户的故事以及我们的斗争以及我们如何创建这个伟大的新的过程thing for them and don’t you love it? And they say, well, you know, the analysts that you’re building for what does their boss say about it? And you’re like, oh, I don’t know. I didn’t talk to the boss. Right? Then you lose your credibility. So you need to have done all of the research and be able to point to. You’ve done interviews with these people. This is what they’re saying. Or if they ask you on the fly. “Well, you know, you told me the story of the analysts, how they’ll use their tools to write their report. Well what happens to the report after that? How does it fit into the ecosystem?” And so if we are doing our jobs well, we can say, “well, we have also talked to the policymakers who will use the product. And here’s their story of how they’ll use it.” And so, you know, it’s part of the storytelling curriculum. We also do a lot of improv because it is a story. That presentation never goes off exactly as you think it will. And so you need to be ready for questions from the audience. For what about or push back or whatever and be able to respond with an equally polished answer and try to keep that storytelling still alive and not just revert back to, “well, 54 percent…” Or whatever it is.

凯蒂:[00:44:36]极好的。是的。是的。所以，你在这个例子给了这么多的建议，我觉得它是如此有助于听到你的过程。而作为一个定性的研究，当然，我的心脏在这里飙升了。这就是我的背景是肯定的，就是你知道的，收集人类为基础的研究，并试图分析并在其中找到趋势。所以，你知道，你做的，作为拉出正确的创新故事的方式。我觉得其实是非常重要的。And, you know, again, I think one of the major challenges that we see, whether we’re working with industry or government innovation teams, is that we just, we like… The innovator collects all this information and all of this data, as you said, and we get kind of close to it, you know, it’s our babies, if you will. And it’s such a labor of love that it’s hard for us to extract ourselves and determine what is the most critical information to share and which slides should we have there. But hide and have at the ready for when someone asks that, you know, that question that’s going to sort of call into question the conclusions that you’ve come to. So I love that. And I’m so grateful that you’ve walked us through the process. I think a lot of – I’m hopeful that listeners are taking that process into account and thinking through, you know, are you paying attention to the story as you go about doing the innovation work? I think we need more visibility for the role that story plays in the innovation process and especially for internal purposes. The way that you’re describing, I think the majority of innovation storytelling, especially after conducting 100 interviews with innovation leaders like yourself, at this point, we’re just seeing it is kind of surprising, I guess, from the outside, if you haven’t thought of it this way. But innovation, storytelling is far more critical internally to an organization, typically, than it is externally. And so, yes, it’s important that consumers or your communities see the ways in which you’re innovating and that they understand what it is that you’re doing to make your organization stronger and better. But if those projects can’t get internal buy-in and get momentum through the power of story internally, we never even get to get to that point of being external-facing. So that’s kind of a surprise finding, I think, at Untold when we first started this research question of “where does story live inside the innovation world?” More powerfully than not, I would say most people really talk about its critical importance to internal buy-in. And so I’m really grateful to hear you talk through your process and your ways of, you know, thinking through how to pull different stakeholders in, get their reactions to stories, get their feedback, and then refine the way that you tell it and deciding which data you present based on their preferences, priorities, concerns. So I think there’s so much to that. And if I were a listener, I would just go back five minutes and listen to that whole section again. I’m so grateful for the time we’ve had together, and I’d love for you to leave us with some key pieces of advice that you’d like to give to innovators as they continue to share their great ideas.

凯思莲:(00:47:54)绝对的。我给每个人的一个建议就是爱上这个问题。没有任何特解。我想举个约会的例子。对吧?首先，你需要弄清楚你是谁，你需要什么，什么能让你快乐。当你第一次约会的时候。不要马上预定婚礼场地。只是可能会感到兴奋。但也许你可以试几次。 Try meeting different people. And if it doesn’t work out, that’s OK, right? Think of it as: you’re the quirky heroine in the rom-com. And this is all part of the process. This is the point. We try multiple solutions and eventually you will have your happily ever after.

凯蒂:(00:48:40)是的。

凯思莲:(00:48:40)关键是要了解自己，欣赏自己，知道自己值得拥有这个权利。

凯蒂:(00:48:46)凯瑟琳，我喜欢这个建议。这是美妙的。谢谢你给我们留下这个比喻。它是如此之大。我认为我们都能联系到，你知道，不管是讲故事，写作还是内容创作，不管这对我们个人来说是否自然，我们都是人。因此，我们是讲故事的人。所以，找到对你有意义的东西，当你代表你正在做的工作时，做真实的自己是非常重要的。我觉得你的比喻很好地说明了这一点。

凯思莲:[00:49:16]谢谢!

凯蒂:[00:49:16]凯瑟琳，人们在哪里可以了解更多关于你和你的团队的信息？他们在哪里可以在网上找到你？

凯思莲:(00:49:24)要了解更多关于这个主题的信息，或者了解我在情报界和创新领域的工作，我建议你登录intelligence.gov。在dni.gov网站上有一份我的简介和采访。你可以找到电子邮件地址为更多的媒体询问。

凯蒂:[00:49:44]太棒了。凯瑟琳，我会在节目笔记中链接到你在intelligence.gov上的文章。再次感谢大家抽出时间来和我们讨论创新故事。

凯思莲:[00:49:56]谢谢你！这真的很有趣。

凯蒂:[00:49:58]感谢您在本周的剧集中听。请务必在社交媒体上关注我们，并将您的声音添加到谈话中。你可以找到我们@untoldContent。

你可以多听几集不为人知的创新故事播客．

*采访不是对个人或企业的认可。