与扎克·戴维斯探讨创新的含义

“创新为什么会发生?”我曾经认为答案与必要性有关。当人们有了他们需要的东西时,技术和创新才得以发展。我越研究它,就越意识到很多创新都来自于:“为什么?”我把它弄乱了。我想要的。我很好奇。我很感兴趣。我并没有打算让这一切发生,这是偶然的,这一切就这么凑合在一起了。”——扎克·戴维斯,劳伦斯利弗莫尔国家实验室的高级研究员

创新几乎总是被视为一件积极的事情。然而,当一个全新的创新想法具有不可预见的含义时会发生什么?当创新最初不一定产生积极影响时会发生什么?今天,劳伦斯·利弗莫尔国家实验室的高级研究员扎克·戴维斯深入了解创新的潜在威胁和风险。扎克专门分析大规模杀伤性武器和新兴技术。他分享了商界如何与政府沟通,反之亦然,以及创新技术的复杂性。虽然必要性是发明之母,但必要的东西可能并非严格意义上的有益和鼓舞人心的东西。让好奇心、激情和兴趣激发创新想法,而不是严格意义上的必要性。随着技术创新带来的全球社会,讲故事和谁来编写故事是考虑“战略延迟”时需要探索的基本问题,也就是创新的利用和探索方式。一定要退房https://cgsr.llnl.gov/关于劳伦斯利弗莫尔国家实验室的更多信息,以及创新技术的复杂性。有兴趣进一步看?看看全球传播文章中信息的机会和陷阱的一个例子隐形研究:缺乏来自医疗行业独角兽的同行评审证据以及Samuel Huntington在他在冷战后景观中有趣的创新预测中的煽动创新预测的有趣预测:《文明的冲突与世界秩序的重塑》

扎卡里·戴维斯专业分析大规模杀伤和新兴技术武器。他拥有南亚安全的区域专业知识。在劳伦斯·利弗莫尔实验室他管理着一个关于新兴技术的军事影响的项目。戴维斯博士在海军研究生院论反增殖与拦截。他是众多文章和章节的作者,以及核扩散,南亚安全和战略延迟的卷的编辑。

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凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:00:04]欢迎来到《不为人知的创新故事》,在这里,我们将通过不为人知的内容放大不为人知的见解、影响和创新故事。雷竞技电竞竞猜我是主持人,凯蒂·特劳斯·泰勒。

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:00:19]我们的客人今天是Zach Davis,他是劳伦斯利弗莫尔国家实验室的高级研究员,并在加利福尼亚蒙特雷的海军研究生学院研究教授。Zach,我很高兴能够让你在播客上谈论我们实际上没有在这个播客上迄今为止覆盖的东西。而且,我会说,创新的黑暗面,如果你愿意,那种措辞的方式。但我认为美国在这里有一种丰富和流行的叙述,也许甚至在全球范围内,创新和进步和技术进步总是很好。而硅谷的文化有点加剧了这一点或放大了它。我们说“快速地移动和休息。”但是你的领导力实际上是,非常重要的是,在相反的思维中,这是:有什么威胁,对我们国家安全或我们的公司或我们的公司之间的风险是什么?在某些风险和结果时对我们的公司有什么影响创新don’t go the way that were planned or actually when they’re actually invented for the sake of being harmful? So tell us more about your work. I find this to be incredibly fascinating, and I’m really excited to dive in.

Zach Davis:[00:01:38]嗯,谢谢你,凯蒂。是的,技术总是一把双刃剑,它总是具有双重用途的性质。事实上,正如你在国防工业和美国政府中提到的,我们特别在寻找可以应用于你可能称之为黑暗面的创新。这是我们的目标。这有很长的历史。事实上,它的技术似乎总是更能反映人类的本性,而不是其他任何东西。这让我想起了2001年电影的第一个开场:《太空漫游》,猿猴们站在巨石前。大约一分钟后,他们拿起那块骨头,开始敲打骨头,四处张望,看看能打到谁。所以这是人的天性。技术只是人类本性的一种表达。 And with all of its, you know, with all of its flaws and itself having a dark side and a light side. Right?

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:(00:03:14)是的。是什么让你对这方面的研究感兴趣?

Zach Davis:[00:03:21]是的,好吧,我开始我的意思是,当我终于有时间去上大学的时候,这对我来说并不是很自然,但是当我去的时候,我想我想去学科学。我真的对科学和物理感兴趣。作为一名冲浪者,我想学习海洋学,我认为这是一个结合我兴趣的好方法。所以当我开始上学和上课的时候,没过多久我就意识到我对技术的影响、政治后果、决策、技术成果比技术本身更感兴趣。因此,我开始尝试研究科学政策和技术政策,以及围绕这些政策做出的决策。当然,这很快就会导致核武器和相应的或战略性的技术,这些技术有能力改变世界,使之脱离你可能认为是一种稳定的进步,并将世界带入不同的方向。所以我对核武器、核战略、核政策和核历史感兴趣,对这些技术的起源和发展,以及它们是如何演变的,我的意思是,核武器和核技术是我所说的双重用途的一个很好的例子。对吗?它可以是一种奇妙的能源,应用于医学,对人类和人类都是一种真正的好处,但它也具有内在的能力,可以摧毁一切已经建立和创造的东西。这是一种典型的战略延迟技术。

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:05:35]是的。所以你写了很多关于战略延迟的事情。对于人们,对于听众而言,可能不像熟悉这个词:你能帮助为守工唱歌定义它吗?

Zach Davis:[00:05:45]是的。如此这般由许多名字和不同,你知道,不同的机构,不同的研究者对新兴技术,新兴的和破坏性的技术,不同的词。我们击中了长期的战略延迟了几个原因。一个是我们使用这个非常滥用的词,战略性的,对不对?那么,什么是战略?这意味着什么对我们来说,这是一件特别后果,而不仅仅是每一项技术,但我们要区分怎么那些拥有改变世界的,这东西可以改变权力平衡,这东西会......莫非不是技术被忽略,如果这是语气不清楚]定义和世界配电定义。所以那种winnows了你的列表,当然,仍然有哪些技术属于该类别与否的辩论。而有一些,现在有几分对这种能力的候选人。但是,核武器,当然,有几分海报孩子的对于一种战略能力,那就是在技术所固有的。 The second word, latency, which is another amorphous term and means different things to different people, but latent, for us, refers to that underlying and sometimes yet unexploited, unappreciated aspect of the technology, because quite often these technologies don’t have the obvious application that now, it all, in retrospect, seems clear to us that these things had this latent potential to be used in these ways. But, oftentimes, these technologies lay sort of dormant until they meet up with other technologies, or that’s where we get into the realm of innovation, right? Someone comes up with an idea like, “well, you know, we could…” And then there’s a chain of events that brings that latency to the fore and then it can be exploited either for commercial or military or creative purposes. And so there is a lot of latency around in the technologies that there are lists and lists of technologies that could be exploited in different ways. And today we have the whole biotech field is really genetic engineering going off with latent potential. And there’s quantum computing, hypersonics, space is another area where there’s a tremendous explosion of latent technologies that have the potential – they could be on the list. But yet we don’t know. And maybe 20 years ago, people were talking about, you know, cyber and the Internet. And this has tremendous potential to change the world. And it wasn’t clear how that was going to unfold with iPhones and the like. And it has. And so these things are hard to predict and they are latent until, you know, the human motivation puts that intent behind it and starts to innovate and create new applications.

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:09:47]所以根据定义,战略潜伏期,这涉及到一些时间的因素在这方面做一些研究。所以很多创新团队专注于“未来”,或试图预测未来的趋势,特别是在消费者行为方面,诸如此类的事情。在你看来,战略潜伏期研究和未来创新之间的关系是什么?

Zach Davis:[00:10:13]嗯,这是一个非常有趣的话题面积,因为人们都爱上了预测,对不对?然后,和人一样,他们希望,他们想知道未来和...

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:10:27]他们希望成为一个正确的人。

Zach Davis:[00:10:29]他们做他们想做的现金就可以了或者他们想要写科幻小说。对吧?他们希望......他们希望看到的未来。并有一个伟大的 - 凡尔纳和威尔斯H.G.和艾萨克·阿西莫夫 - 他们都有对未来的技术,伟大的想法。今天我们有样的人试图预测山寨产业的发展。但是,我认为更具体的国防应用的世界里,你知道,有战略预警的问题,对不对?什么是未来?什么......如果他们能做到这一点?他们能这样做吗?所以有一个专注于其他创新者,其他国家,其他公司,其他团体,其他竞争对手在做什么和“有什么关系?” What if they were able to put this with that and, you know, so predicting also is – sorry to say – hard and there’s a sort of a unicorn that we’re chasing in prediction that maybe with enough data. Right? Maybe with big enough computers and enough data and the right algorithms, you know, we could come up with a prediction as to how these technologies are going to join up with human motivations and produce something we haven’t seen before. And is that going to be dangerous and is that going to be applied to military purposes? And so, you know, prediction in the US government really is the realm of the intelligence community where you’re looking at what’s coming and do we need to warn people about it? But it’s also in the realm of defense planning, right? Because you’re building today or you’re planning today for things that won’t come into existence for, sometimes, years and years, takes a long time to build a big naval or space system. And so you want to know what the battlefield looks like now. So that you can prepare for it, but of course, you can’t. So there’s a… It’s a robust industry these days, this notion of foresight and predicting what’s coming and how it’s going to manifest. And, of course, in the private sector, that is business intelligence. Right? That’s what it’s going to be doing.

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:13:32]是的。嗯,在商业世界和创新者的动机和政府在国家安全中的作用之间存在额外的讽刺和紧张。在我们对创新的考虑方面,这里真的有一个冲突。创新者正在使用数据和预测来预测可能有利可图,了解可能导致某些新技术的不断变化的行为,而不必考虑到国家安全的后果。另一方面,您有国家安全与国防和国防部和国家领导和政府有用,因为他们的主要优先事项是安全,同时也仍然有助于经济增长。所以这些事情处于如此紧张状态,在我看来他们真的说出不同的语言。

Zach Davis:(00:14:32)你说得对。过去我的意思是,至少在冷战期间,许多重大技术创新都起源于政府。他们是大型政府项目的结果,你知道,曼哈顿项目。

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:14:53]是的。

Zach Davis:(00:14:55)隐身或iPhone。因此,这些政府机构和政府项目是许多这些世界变化技术的发源地,这意味着,一时,政府可以控制这些事情,对吗?你可以有出口管制,你可以保密,你可以说,你知道,不是每个人都被允许知道这个,你可以控制它。对吧?这是一种控制技术更广泛影响的方法。但当然,一切都是瞬间,政府真的不再是,你知道,这些类型的大型技术创新的唯一来源。它真的在私营部门。这就是硅谷进入图片的地方。而且,当然,你知道,这是一种不同的文化,但他们与政府的基本不同的目标不同。正如你所说,你知道,政府的主要目的是保护人民和国家。 And the companies are primarily focused on making money and shareholder value. And so there’s a really big gap. Right. And it is a gap between the cultures. And you said, I mean, the language that people use is, you know, it’s hard to even talk across that gulf of government-speak and defense-speak and intel-speak and Silicon Valley entrepreneurial culture that has grown up with its own language and its own way of doing things. But interestingly, you know, the government, like I was saying, you know, wanting the best newest technology, wanting to understand the battlefield of the future and prepare for it is… At least understands that they need the private sector now. And interestingly, the private sector is global. These Silicon Valley firms are global. They are not US firms in many ways. They’re fully globalized and they have a global customer base and their talent base is global. They get people and experts from the world. And so you’ve got a situation where these formerly secretive defense industrial complex managers are forced to reach out to the primary source of innovation and try to bridge that gap, and so there have been a number of efforts put in place specifically to do that. So there’s something in Silicon Valley here called the “Defense Innovation Unit.” It was created in the last administration specifically to build a bridge and get to know and, as they put it when it was established, be a kind of a, you know, a consulate, be a kind of an embassy for the Defense Department in Silicon Valley and reach out and understand, you know, their needs.

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:18:41]术语,单独的隐喻与鸿沟的严重性谈到,它是一个领事馆,好像我们有点进入外国领土,不得不说出完全不同的语言。

Zach Davis:[00:18:54]这是真的。所以你看见一对情侣在真正的紧张时刻的......特别是,你知道,人工智能,与A.I。和国防部意识到他们生活中不可缺少的是,未来的战场将是很严重依赖这些工具有多种用途的,并且没有追索权。他们不得不去硅谷。美国中央情报局已经有了一个前哨基地,并在美国硅谷的前哨称为在-Q-Tel公司。而他们的商业模式看,可以被应用到他们的需求,情报需求的技术,并确保这些公司并没有死。对吧?So they were in the role of kind of a venture capital investment entity that would make sure that these companies that were struggling, that had something that were really on to something that the government could use, didn’t just die in what they call the “Valley of Death” between a great idea and a first round of funding. But “we just couldn’t make it work. We just couldn’t find the customer base, so we had to close it up.” So that model has been successful. The Defense Innovation Unit model is a little bit different, but they also are looking at startups and they’re looking at ways to build these partnerships and bring the Silicon Valley class into the inner circle of what their defense needs really are. And with A.I., that all kind of focused on something called “Project Maven” in which Google was helping, because they are a leader in this field, and Google was helping the Defense Department and mainly in the massive flows of data. Right? I mean, that’s really the battlefield of the future, are these massive flows of data coming from multiple sources because it’s a multi-domain battlefield, is what we call it now, where, you know, you’ve got the space assets and ground, and unmanned vehicles of various types, massive data flows coming in. And so Project Maven was helping with that, and you saw kind of a rebellion among some of the Google staff. “[unclear wording] kill people, I’m not doing that,” and so it was maybe an instructive experience for both sides and more people in the valley side are coming to understand the totality of what defense means and the defense side, people are coming more to understand the priorities and ethics of the private sector.

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凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:22:36]我希望你能继续分享更多关于这一点的信息。您已经撰写了领先专家关于新兴和破坏性技术带来的威胁、机遇和国家安全挑战的重要见解。你已经提供了一些强有力的例子,但是你能分享更多来自这个领域的故事吗?

Zach Davis:(00:23:02)嗯,是的,我的意思是,这是整个主题有趣的一部分,对吧,是的,你知道,它是如此广泛,对吗?它横穿每一个烟囱,你知道,每一种文化,每一个国家。所以我想思考的方式是,在人的方面,你知道,人们在做什么,对吗?你知道,不是在我们知道的地方,而是在其他国家,正在开发的创新技术有哪些。当然,这些天来,中国受到了很多关注,因为他们显然在进行投资,他们把钱放在自己的嘴上,他们在倾注资源,我指的是人力资源,但货币资源,他们在这些关键技术领域投入了大量精力,其中包括生物技术领域。但是计算能力,你知道,神经学,它是全面的,他们把各个部分整合起来,让他们的员工在世界上最好的大学里接受培训。他们明确地把成为这些关键技术的领导者作为一个目标。由于军事上的复杂性,这引起了人们的关注。这场全球竞争的一个有趣的方面是,这些国家的文化在竞争中也很明显。所以你看看俄罗斯,它是一个完全不同的东西。私营部门的问题变得非常重要,而中国已经释放了这些公司,尽管有一个限制——你在Tik Tok和微信上看到了这一点——他们的一些技术实际上可能仍然与政府有联系。所以这就提高了井的高度,为什么?为什么…他们用这些数据做什么?这会被武器化吗?在俄罗斯,你没有私营部门,这真的伤害了他们。这使得他们很难在某些领域竞争。现在,当然,他们拥有世界级的智慧,但他们只是没有金融资源或企业家阶层,他们把这些人丢到了西方,他们去那里赚钱,对吗?所以,你知道,俄罗斯会…会因此受到伤害。因此,我想这其中最有趣的一个方面是文化层面,尽管一切都是全球化的,国防领域的所有技术都是全球可用的,但它仍然涉及到国家。以及不同国家如何做出决策,如何与这些公司建立良好关系,如何能够依赖它们并建立互利关系,或者你是否必须走出自己的国家,为全球技术付出代价。所以很有趣。当然,另一种分类方法是生物技术,对吗?这些领域中有很多是文化上不同的,对吗?因此,生物技术产业与生物科学是完全不同的,生物科学是根据不同的科学规范和原则运作的,而且,你知道,为了在这一领域可信和高效,你需要接受不同的培训。所以你也会卷入很多其他的学科或多学科的争论。对吗?道德、规范甚至条约。对吗?雷竞技raybet提现

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:27:55]我们在Theranos World的帖子和一些盲目的势头中,不够弗兰克,医学严谨或科学评论。我认为这种空间的文化开始改变,验证更为重要。但即使是去年,仍然存在一项伟大的研究研究,关于缺乏同行评审围绕医疗保健Unicorns的研究。

Zach Davis:[00:28:24]正确的。

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:(00:28:25)我会在节目笔记,因为它是一个伟大的阅读链接,但我认为,文化也开始变化。但这是一个缓慢的变化。而但同样,这是真正的关键,不只是......没有那么多...要在医疗产品,我们就会把这些有世界有效性方面的国家安全利益。

Zach Davis:(00:28:44)这是其中一个有趣的方面,你知道,随之而来的道德问题,在某种程度上是嵌入在条约,实践和科学界运作的方式中。但特别是如果你看一下生物科学,你知道,有些人期望某些事情不应该做,我们不应该做某些事情。这些障碍中有很多已经被测试过了,也被绕过了,所以这在国防和外交领域是一个有趣的问题,很多关于不应该做的事情的行为规范都体现在条约中。有生物武器条约,化学武器条约,核不扩散条约,禁止在大气中试验核武器和试验的条约,以及人类决定最好不要做的事情,为了所有人的利益,我想问一下,这些规范、做法、制度、法律和协议是否正在经受考验,并被证明是不可执行的,当到了紧要关头,是否不再被实践,不再被尊重,这是很公平的。所以你会看到化学武器卷土重来。这是人们认为已经解决的问题。《禁止化学武器公约》有一个执行和核查机构。但当这些国际多边机构依赖于大国来实施这些想法时,你知道,这就归结为大国政治。现在,大国政治没有把多边协议放在…

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:31:36]也许感觉是短期的。

Zach Davis:[00:31:39]更为直接。

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:31:39]正确的。正确的。我想说的是,把这些放在可能是短期个人利益或……有趣的事情之前。

Zach Davis:[00:31:48]正确的。是的。

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:(00:31:50)我知道你们的专业领域是大规模杀伤性武器和其他一些物理威胁,但我们也生活在一个虚假信息和数据被用来影响和改变公众舆论或人们心态的时代。这也是你在一些研究中涉及的一个领域吗?

Zach Davis:[00:32:18]好吧,我是其中一个漂移者......我是所有交易的杰克和一个没有的杰克,但它让我去获得合适的人来回答这些问题。在我们为特殊操作所做的新书中有一个关于这种不忠实问题的巨大部分。当然,您知道,信息流量的全球化的明显当前示例是民主化的中断。而且太容易了。而且你不必真正有很多资源。它不像发现一个新的元素或攻击新的武器系统。这真的打开了这个领域,因为它很容易。而且你知道我如何开始谈论这些工具真的只是对人性的反映。我认为这就是你在不确定方面所看到的。哪个是,你知道,这些缺陷,这些缺陷,我的意思是,它就是吧? Throughout political philosophy, it’s in the Bible, it’s in all of our understanding of human nature that we have these fears and insecurities and prejudices and confirmation bias. And that’s just a part of being human. And so these tools, these global tools that can get into your pocket, that can reach billions in a nanosecond, have opened up this new realm of influence operations. And again, you know, no norms to guide this, no sense of restraint. And we have hurtled forward in discovering the latent potential of these technologies and the influence on individual group, collective consciousness. And of course, that has tremendous implications for democracy, but also for leadership. When you can undermine decision-making by introducing controversial ideas that are not supportive of leadership directions or leadership, you know, priorities and and it’s just too easy and we seem to be, globally, willing to, you know, to let this tsunami overwhelm us. And what comes on the other side when there’s no ability to distinguish between truth and lies or interpretations, and it comes down to critical thought. I mean, I asked my kids about this, too, because they, you know, they’re on all these social media platforms. And I’m not and I don’t understand. And they say, “hey, you know, Dad, did you hear about this?” And I go, “well that sounds like… That is stupid. That can’t be right.” “Yeah. Well, you know as well, you know…” Fortunately or unfortunately, this new generation is at least extremely cynical. I find. And that maybe our saving grace, right? That they don’t believe… they know it’s all B.S. They don’t believe anybody. They don’t believe me. They don’t believe you. They don’t believe it. They, at least, I mean, it’s a little disheartening because you don’t want to raise a generation of cynics. On the other hand, they at least have this critical capacity to know that all this stuff that’s flowing into their phones and computers and across the you know, the universe may or may not be true. The problem is they don’t believe anybody, right?

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:36:42]对,对,对。我认为,在这么多年之后,我们生活在一个被社交媒体主宰的世界里,我们只是看到一些公司开始屏蔽虚假信息或采取更积极的措施。这是个问题。但至少我们现在正朝着这个方向前进,这花了很长时间。也许是由于国家安全和政府领导人的抵制,创新界开始更有准备地捍卫和保护不正确信息的快速传播。

Zach Davis:(00:37:33)嗯,我认为这是一场新的全球软实力竞争。所有这些,你知道,这种连接和使之成为可能的机制正在为影响和全球力量打开新的可能性。软实力在某种程度上次于硬实力,军事、经济、实际的力量形式,而软实力,你知道,是文化和概念上的,以及其他形式的影响力,这些影响力来自于全球的联系。我想你们特别注意到,中国实体现在已经收购了大部分好莱坞大型电影制片厂,并对内容施加影响。有一个词我很讨厌,但我不得不说那就是全球都在竞争叙事。对吧?谁在讲这个故事?我想这正是你的拿手好戏,凯蒂。

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:39:00]正确的。

Zach Davis:[00:39:01]因为这一切都是关于故事,谁讲故事,你怎么讲故事。而美国,在整个冷战时期处于优势地位的时候,真的有那个主要的,能够讲述故事并控制叙事的地位。美国电影、美国作家、美国电视和美国产品也是如此。蝙蝠侠,李维斯和约翰·韦恩。我们建立了一个关于美国和美国世纪的故事。我认为,在现在的全球力量竞争中,所有这些都在竞争。几个正在崛起的大国,中国,俄罗斯,伊朗和其他许多正在崛起的国家,有着不同的故事。他们说,是的,我们听到了美国的故事,我们听到了殖民主义的故事。好,不错的故事。但是你做的。 We’re done listening to you. And so global media is trying to tell different stories. And so, you know, India has its own story and they have their own sense of the world order and their own sense of history and what the future should look like. So rising powers are trying to change the narrative and they recognize that these… Global connectivity and the contest for soft power is really where the hearts and minds of the world are going to be changed. And whether the new order that is coming will favor, and unfortunately, this comes down to either national or cultural or ethnic… There was a big article that came out around the end of the Cold War by an international relations scholar. His name was Samuel Huntington, very influential. And he posited that now that the Cold War was over and that the restraints on these big national and ethnic rivalries had been eliminated that the future would now sort of devolve into, unfortunately, what… Kind of something more along the lines of what we’re seeing now. It’s that there would be, you know, a Chinese narrative, a European narrative, a South American narrative, a South Asian narrative. That the big divisions in the world would manifest in this sort of globalized competition for, you know, the hearts and minds of the world. And that’s kind of what’s happening. I mean, anyone can tell the story now.

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:42:22]正确的。正确的。就像你说的那样,一个国家或实体来说能够通过使用缺点来获得软功率来得多。而且,您知道,如果您不是控制国家安全决策的人,所有这些主题都会让您对个人级别感到有点无奈。或者......但是我想以为,作为创新者和CIO和CIO和经理和经理人和那些从创新领域的自下而上工作的人,听到这一点 - 我们有一些外卖器,单独。我们喜欢,在解开,我们喜欢研究公共知识产权的概念。以及如何改变这种概念,作为一个酷的人民,他们正在向新闻电路展示给我们所有人都可以适用于世界上的日常行动?您如何宣传一个知识分享和重视和寻求的世界,寻求真相?你在那方面是什么作用,你如何掌握这一点?所以所有这些都被说,我会爱上我们在这里有点谨慎,真正的个人责任,因为这么多的这些力量感觉出于任何个人的控制。 And yet within our own spheres of influence, we do have some control over whether or not we allow our innovation stories to discuss the dark side and to have that ethical touch point in our innovation processes whereby we could kill a project because of its implications to the betterment of society. So share with us some of your thoughts on that. I think, you know, how do we as innovators prepare to say the dark side and communicate it and voice that in a world that does not value that?

Zach Davis:[00:44:26]哦!是的,凯蒂,这是一个大的。所以,我认为道德推理,右,所有这一切的道德方面都会归结为个人层面,你知道,道德经过。我真的想,你知道,讲故事,正如你所定义的那样,对吧?但你知道所有这些概念和所有区别的概念以及应该做的所有区别,应该做些什么,不应该做出什么来归结为个人决定。你知道,就像我说,国家的国家,国家的控制权不到以前。大型机构,全球大实体,大浓度的力量现在不太有影响力。向外电力分散,这就是这种全球主义真正抓住的方式。所以,我的意思是,如果有了好消息,那是决策和权威和代理商,无论你想称之为什么,都已经将其归结为个人,当地群体级别。而这与国家国家不同,国家各国追求他们......他们必须的东西。 But. Each of us has that, as that decision making authority, and I would go back to the, where we started, in the dual-use nature of technology. You know, people ask “why?” Right? So you can say that “what’s driving all this?” Right? Is it the “dark side?” The money.. Is it greed? What’s what’s driving all this? Why are we… Why is this happening? And I used to think that the answer had to do with, you know, necessity, right? That technology and innovation unfolded when people had something that they needed. They needed to get a task done. They wanted to do something. And so they needed to innovate to achieve their goal. And the more I studied it, the more I realized that, you know, a lot of this innovation comes just from, you know, “why?” Because I was messing around with this. Because I wanted it. Because I was curious. Because I was interested or, you know, I didn’t plan on this. You know, I didn’t intend for this to happen, you know, this was serendipitous, this, you know, all just kind of came together. And so, I think what that means is, at the individual level, much of this innovation and much of the big developments…. Even those that are commanded and resourced and driven by larger interests, right, big Silicon Valley entrepreneurs, governments. You know, terrorist groups. They have their needs, but it does flow to the individual. To be, you know, this is all human. This is where we get focused on the shiny objects and we love our technology. But at the end of the day, this is all just human and it just… It’s in the hands of individuals.

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[○时48分53秒]正确的。正确的。有一刻我永远不会忘记。当我上大学的时候,一个英语教授,我们在阅读大屠杀文学和我们放下书,她抬起头,她说,嗯,感觉如何知道纳粹科学家进行不道德的犹太人口回家实验结束时每天晚上,家人说,嗨,亲爱的,然后躺在床上放松下来,开始新的一天?正确的。就像你说的,需求驱动行动,而道德与我们眼前的需求相比就变成了一个灰色地带,这是一个非常非常黑暗的例子。但我想提醒你,恐惧是合理的,或者,可怜的动作或不负责任的行为,都是合理的,因为单独和检查自己和足够的勇气,尤其是如果你是一个创新的领导者,让我们确保我们的故事的影响覆盖不仅是光滑的,美好的可能性和利益相关者的利益,也包括公共卫生利益或公共利益和全球利益。

Zach Davis:(00:50:12)正确的。确切地。

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:50:14]这很难。违背必要性,无论是处于最高水平还是个人......拥有个人生活,这很难。您对创新者有什么其他建议,作为一定会不断研究这些主题的人?

Zach Davis:(00:50:32)嗯,这是一个棘手的术语。我发现当人们谈论创新时,他们的意思是不同的,你知道,如果你在做生意,那意味着一件事。对吗?这是一种颠覆性的商业模式。对吗?因此,我们需要创新。正确的。优步是创新的,不是因为他们发明了任何一种技术,也不是因为他们……你知道,而是因为他们的理念是商业。

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:(00:51:02)是的。

Zach Davis:[00:51:03]他们认为这是一种更好的赚钱或省钱的方法,在科学领域,创新要么是新的知识,让我们发现新的东西,一个新的元素或一个新的过程,一种新的发现方法。所以当他们创新时,让我们尝试一些不同的东西。我们的实验。当然,这意味着你不知道会发生什么。然后在战场上,当你谈论创新时,很多时候你谈论的是战术和战略。所有这些都涉及到对手或你的社区,对吧?这一切都离不开周围的环境,你会影响到其他人。所以你被嵌入了。无论是在商业世界的竞争中,你都想把这些人赶出这个行业。这就是Uber的出租车业务,对吧? That was an institution that had long, long been a part of society. And, you know, it’s like, just wipe them out. And, you know, people were a little bit sad about that. On the battlefield, a lot of times, it means either new ways to prevail. But also, I think, you know, one thing that is perhaps paradoxical, but positive is the whole notion of deterrence, right? If you get really good at fighting war. Then it definitely influences the mindset of potential adversaries, let’s not have a war, I don’t think that would work out well for us. So sort of the paradox of nuclear weapons, right? The ability to destroy everything turns out to be the secret to the long peace, right? When global competitors make a rational decision that war no longer can serve the purpose for which it’s prosecuted. You can’t – you can’t win. We can’t come out of it better than we started. Let’s just not do it. Let’s find a way to avoid war. So, you know, I find this notion of innovation really elusive, very evasive and something that is natural, it’s a natural outcome of curiosity, of necessity, of creativity. It’s a part of human nature, right? It’s a part of what we do to survive. And so I’ve often been kind of perplexed by prescriptions, you know, “how to innovate.”

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:(00:54:18)

Zach Davis:(00:54:18)和“如何创建一个创新的工作场所,”你知道,“如何培养创新,”你知道,如何把它从人民中取而化。来吧。来吧。你能行的!让我们创新。开箱即用,让我们试试。我只是认为捕捉和姿势是一件很难的事情。在我看来,你知道,你知道,更多的独角兽和自然发生的东西,并将永远发生,并不总是发生......你知道,你也无法镇压。你不希望恐怖分子是创新的。而且,你知道,我的意思是,战争中创新的最佳案例研究之一是IED,对吧?

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:(00:55:05)mmhm。

Zach Davis:(00:55:05)这是一个非常低的技术,你知道,这是世界各地的一些恐怖分子来到了一种处理压倒性传统的军事力量,你知道,他们想破坏,他们想打败。所以,你知道,恐怖分子真的很擅长创新。

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:55:33]必要性,再一次,必要性。善良。谢谢你!我知道我们可以继续,我们已经谈了一个小时,我不敢相信。它从我身边飞逝而过。我相信听众也有同感。扎克,我很感激你能在播客上谈论这些问题。我同意你的观点,我们需要继续为我们对创新的理解的细微差别而奋斗。听众在哪里可以找到你?

Zach Davis:(00:56:04)嗯,我们在劳伦斯利弗莫尔国家实验室举行了一个网站,有一点智库在那里我工作,这是全球安全研究的中心,CGSR。所以它是“cgsr.llnl.gov”。我们对各种议题有很多出版物,涵盖各种问题的人。我们现在正在致力于大型生物安全项目,也在致力于一大堆气候和环境和安全项目。我们有很多出版物和许多有趣的讲座,您可以点击并从中学习。所以我在那里可以到达。

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:56:54]精彩的。非常感谢您,Zach Davis,用于播客,并在今天加入我们。以后再聊。

Zach Davis:[00:57:02]谢谢你!凯蒂,谢谢你让我闲逛。

凯蒂Trauth泰勒:[00:57:05]感谢收听本周的节目。请务必在社交媒体上关注我们,并在对话中加入您的声音。你可以找到我们在数不清的内容。雷竞技电竞竞猜

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